I figure that since not all of us read the manga and I'll admit I haven't read it through in ages but have recently marathoned Brotherhood, we can start talking about it and just see where we go. Given that most of this group, as far as I know, really likes FMA in some incarnation at least, we should get a lot out of it. I have no objection to compare/contrast with the original series either. This might also be a bit of fun while we wait for Star of Milos to come out. I'll start with a few questions we can work off.
Maenos and I were discussing this one at some point, and he may be able to elaborate more, but how do you guys interpret that we saw multiple versions of the Gate of Truth, depending on who did the transmutation? The ones I remember for sure are that Ed and Al's gates looked similar, but I'm not sure if they were exactly the same, and Mustang's, which was different from theirs.
What are your thoughts on the different means of making a homunculus in the two series? I know we probably pounded this out in the message boards years ago, but I don't remember and haven't been there in ages, so it's worth bringing up again, with the manga ending this month in the States.
This will probably bring on some argument because of preference, but what about the two different endings? We can bring up Conqueror of Shamballa if you wish, though I don't care for it very much and haven't seen it in ages.
For now we can start here, feel free to bring up any other points that stick in your mind and see where this goes. I miss this kind of discussion, so let's bring it on!
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I would totally jump in on this, but I bashed out a nearly novel-length post on the ASMB when the series ended, and I don't think I feel like re-typing that just yet. :P I can at least link the post in here I guess, or quote relevant portions of it, since I know I did get into the differences between the homunculi.
You might as well copy and paste that post, most of us in here haven't been on the boards in ages, so we probably missed your novel.
Heh...I think I'd break the comment form if I attempted that. :P I can at least dig up the link.
The link would be great, TG, I haven't been on the boards in like, a year, but I still remember my password.
Okay...reader be warned:
http://boards.adultswim.com/t5/General-Action-Discussion/Trunks-Watching-the-Full-Anime-Block-Experiment17/m-p/61861150#M5408690
This is mainly done in the context of looking at Brotherhood as a whole, and comparing its impact on me to that of the first anime series. I'm not really sure how much I referenced earlier posts in the thread, and I know I expounded on some points in other posts down the page, so it's up to you just how much of that mess you feel like reading. The worst part is that now I have to make a similar post for Durarara, though with any luck it'll be like a third as long. :D
Haha, I guess I qualify as insane, I read the entire post, and I may go along and muse further later. I haven't been on the boards in ages, and I'll admit that I haven't seen the original FMA in quite some time, though like you I got into it while still fairly new to anime and still use it as a measuring stick for almost any other series I see. For the most part I can agree with your reasoning for feeling the way you do about either series, and I'm not going to stir up an argument over things that are down to personal preference. I'm not as familiar with the various stereotypes of the different anime genres, though I'm slowly learning, but as you pointed out the places where it happened, I started to see your points on how Brotherhood is much more a typical shounen than was FMA. I also will agree with you that it was much more plot-driven than FMA, and thus a bit more shallow. I remember the discussions we had, huge paragraphs on things like science, history, religion, mythology, philosophy...I was in college at the time, and I still got some of the most stimulating and thought-provoking discussion of my life from the FMA discussion thread. I also feel that at least for my part I was less willing to put in the effort for Brotherhood, since as you say a good portion of the early stuff got rushed and had already been covered and canvassed so thoroughly by the earlier series. I was also out of college by then, and didn't have the same mindset, though really that feels like an excuse for my laziness. I was similarly disappointed in the briefness of Hughes' time in Brotherhood, though actually seeing and hearing him die was almost more heartbreaking for me than in the original. As for Ed, I wasn't as interested in him in the first series as I was Roy, though I definitely still enjoyed him, but what I loved about him in Brotherhood was watching him grow and mature, both in look and in attitude. I like that he seemed to recognize that while keeping his promise to Al about getting his body back was important, he also recognized that there were bigger things at stake. As for Al, seeing him develop and become strong and independent instead of Ed's sidekick was incredible, and having the two of them spend a decent chunk of the series separated made that all the more noticeable. There were even times when one didn't even know if the other was alive, and that rang pretty powerful for me. Homunculi: I totally agree with you that Lust got shafted, she was a favorite for me as well in the last series, and while her treatment of both Havoc and Roy and subsequent violent death at Roy's hands were pretty cool, she had a lot of unrealized potential. I loved Greed in all his incarnations, so no complaints there, but yeah, Sloth was almost comical in every aspect. Wrath and Pride both got a step up in my opinion though. I must admit I was intrigued by the various ways one could create a homunculus, though it did have a lot less impact on the characters all around than the first series. That was one big difference that hit me about as hard as you...the homunculi just weren't as hardcore as far as emotional impact because their origins were so much more mad-scientist than act of desperation. I'll stop here for now and hopefully not break this with a gigantic reply, but I'll get to the endings in the next round. Thanks for linking, TG.
I think FMA holds a lot of nostalgia for us. It certainly does for me, and when I read both Top Gun and Angela's comments, I get the impression that it is nostalgic for both of you as well.
Which of the two - FMA or Brotherhood - is superior is going to come to down to personal preference, especially when something like nostalgia is thrown into the equation.
I love FMA. I really do. But, I'm not blind to its faults. Aside for ep 3 and I think it was ep 7...the first dozen eps of the series are essentially filler. Yes, the episodes set up the FMA world and introduce us to important characters. But, we also have to sit through Majihal (*shudder*) and the Tringham brothers (ugh). Then later on, we have to endure Wrath, who was annoying as hell (ugh ugh ugh) and Terminarcher...yeah, that just came off as desperate like they weren't sure what to do with him but they needed some sort of catalyst at the end and he seemed the best shot (no pun intended) to fit the bill. Hughes seemed to be around longer in this series because we had to sit through so many sub par episodes to get to his actual story.
Speaking of Hughes...I don't have a problem with how Brotherhood treated his character. In FMA, he and his family were a big motivator to keep the boys going when times got tough. In Brotherhood, he is more a motivator for Mustang. The boys respected him, and they were devastated by what happened to Nina, but Hughes was more important for Mustang's development.
Which leads me to the military. The military is so fully developed in Brotherhood. It's awesome. Those characters are more than just a laugh and a stereotype like they are in FMA...and while I loved the spook episode (in one of the 30s), they really were more for the laughs and gags in FMA. You really get to understand Mustang and what his motivations are. You feel Hawkeye's pain and her devotion to this man. You can see why his people follow him like they do. I don't get that same feeling in FMA.
The world is just more fully developed in Brotherhood. The scope in FMA is smaller - it focuses on Ed and really only Ed and how all the characters act in relation to Ed. In Brotherhood, Ed is an integral part, but he's not the only part. In the manga and in the anime, Ed is absent for chapters/episodes at a time. Yet, the story is able to carry on strongly as ever. The story doesn't rely on Ed's every move, and I think that is a credit to how strong the story is and how well developed the world is that Arakawa created.
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Neither approach is wrong, though. FMA is about a boy's journey. That is very shounen (so, I disagree a little that FMA breaks out from shounen tropes - focusing so much on a teenage boy and the fate of the world (as it relates to the hero) on solely his shoulders is very shounen). Brotherhood is about a boy's journey, and about a man's aspirations, and about a woman's loyalty, and about a people's redemption and so on.
I love Ed. Angela can attest to this. I really love Ed. I'm an Ed fangirl. There aren't many, but I'm one of them. And, I loved seeing him grow and mature in Brotherhood. He was great in FMA - and very attractive near the end of that series...I loved when he opened the doors and walked in like that - very cool. But, in Brotherhood, he is so much stronger. He realizes he can't do it all on his own. He admits when he makes mistakes. He's willing to learn and change and grow.
Winry is another character that benefits significantly in Brotherhood. She got shafted in FMA. She got double shafted in Shamballa. She came off too strong and while I did like her, I wasn't always sympathetic to her. In Brotherhood, I felt like she was with the brothers every step of the way. I really enjoyed her character, and of course I was 'shipping her and Ed and finally - finally! - got my very happy ending for them.
The homunculi...I can see both sides. I enjoyed the emotional depth that you got from a few of them, particularly Lust, which both of you hit upon. They serve a different purpose in Brotherhood. I think it augments both stories to have them be so different. I feel that they are done just about right in each of their respective stories. I felt like Lust was not lacking in Brotherhood because I didn't expect her to be any different. She was what she was in that story. I loved Lust in FMA and her story. I would not change a thing with her in that story. I think one could also argue that there was quite a bit of emotional depth to Wrath's character in Brotherhood. At the very least, he was an enigma. Did he love his wife? He got to choose her. That was the one thing he did get to choose. So, was it because he got to choose that he mentioned that. Or was it because he did have a heart somewhere inside of him? I don't know, but it makes me question and wonder, and I like it when stories do that and don't have to lay it all out and answer every question for me.
So...looking at my thoughts, I definitely lean more towards Brotherhood when it comes to what series I think is superior. However, I love FMA as well. I feel like I'm a winner no matter how you look at it because I love and enjoy both and feel like in the end, I don't have to choose which I would take over the other because I have both. Both are on my shelves as we speak looking very nice indeed. :)
I think Kate makes an excellent point about the nostalgia aspect. I'm considering rewatching the original series now myself, just because I haven't seen it in a very long time and while I know it incredibly well, there are details I've lost or mixed up since I've watched Brotherhood recently multiple times.
Yes, Kate is definitely the Ed fangirl, and while I liked him in the first series, I jumped on that bandwagon hard in Brotherhood. I think what I liked more about him is what Kate mentioned, that he grew and changed and learned to shelve his pride and accept help from people other than Al. That makes a big difference between the little boy who thinks he knows it all and the young man who realizes that he still has a lot to learn.
I think I'll also agree that the homunculi served their various purposes well in both series for what they were supposed to be. Lust was what she was in Brotherhood, but she lost her favorite status (along with Greed, who has upheld his status through both series) just because it felt like she was just the vindictive bitch who liked to toy with men. I know that some people would consider that to be expected of Lust, but I think it's a kind of skewed perspective. She used her attractive body and wiles to make men do things for her, but I don't see that she actually felt lust like say, Gluttony felt hunger, even though they could both be considered physical desires, she just seemed to like that game of using lust to toy with men.
I dunno that it was so much emotional depth for Wrath as it was the enigma of whether he actually felt emotion aside from anger. He did get to choose his own wife, but he didn't seem to care much about her beyond that. He may have been able to make the choice, but did they let him like, go out and meet women and decide for himself, or did they present him with a list, like an arranged marriage for political reasons. Who knows, maybe some of his anger was over something like that, feeling trapped in every aspect of his life right down to his relationship with a wife.
As far as personal preference goes, story-wise I definitely prefer Brotherhood, especially considering that FMA had so many painful episodes with characters who were so plainly filler. We've brought it all up before and I'm not going to name names beyond Terminarcher, who really didn't contribute much or seemed to be stuck in just to get the writers out of a corner. But FMA has a strong place in my heart, and my enjoyment of it won't lessen much just because I spotted some flaws.
I saved TG's post and some subsequent ones from teh boards where he added more thoughts as a Word document, if anyone wants it for reference for this discussion without having to scroll through all the posts and sort out their thoughts.
Oh yeah, and TG, you owe me a drink, I read it all. =P
I read all of it as well. I don't drink, though, so I'll take chocolate instead.
I follow several manga blogs, and coincidentally, one of the discussions for this past month was about Fullmetal Alchemist.
http://mangabookshelf.com/blog/2012/01/04/off-the-shelf-fullmetal-alchemist/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+mangabookshelf+%28Manga+Bookshelf%29
I will caution that it's a long read, but well worth the time investment. I think they did an excellent job of covering FMA and bringing out some really interesting points. Read it and let me know what you think. :)
I read it, and it put me in mind of the discussions we had on the boards during the original series, canvassing everything that sparked our interest, wondering if it had a hidden meaning, and just generally enjoying the depth of the story. They brought up some points that we've covered like King Bradley's wife, and some others that we could have some great discussion about. I'm particularly interested in thoughts on the female characters in the series, since most of the participants in this discussion are girls. What do the guys think? TG? Maenos?
The overall plot of the story and all the characters with their individual traits and personalities are also of deep interest to me...it's hard to make that many unique characters and make them all matter, and make them all stand out and not blend together so that your audience can't remember who is who. I know them all well enough to name them in a crowd, but I've seen and read the series multiple times, and yet I've spoken to first time readers or viewers who can do the same. I know some will disagree, but there were almost no loose ends that were left dangling at the end, and those that weren't addressed were left out on purpose, in my opinion. I also enjoyed the not-necessarily happy ending setup...so many people were better off and in a better place in their lives, but there was still uncertainty and doubt, still missions to complete and wrongs to be righted.
BTW, there's a link at the bottom for an in-depth of the same sort for Fruits Basket, and that's next on my reading list. We may put that up for discussion after FMA, if only because it's my other favorite and I'm totally in love with Kyo. Still. Yes, I'm an incurable otaku. Sue me.
Yeah, this group of people does really great reviews and discussion. Looking at their Fruits Basket discussion, it looks like they did it as part of the "Moveable Feast", which is where bloggers from various discussion boards all comment on the same topic (story, mangaka, etc) over the period of a week and link to each others' articles. They've already set up a tentative schedule for their moveable feast this year, and sometime this summer (either June or July...can't remember which), they are going to have CLAMP as their topic. I'm excited to see what they say about it seeing as I have (or am in process of doing do) collected three of their better known series and am reading a fourth through the library and am considering a fifth (Gate 7) that just started last month.
I enjoyed what they had to say about FMA for sure, but I feel they could have gone into more depth on Fruits Basket. I enjoyed the discussion, but they skated over a lot of things and only just touched on some of the stuff that moved me most. This coming from a Kyo fangirl, admittedly...I wanted them to say more about him, but they seem to come from the Momiji camp. Ah well, no accounting for taste. I favorited these, and I may check out their blogs more in the future.
I'll have to go back and read what they had to say about Fruits Basket. I don't have the time to do that today.
It's through this group of people that I've branched out reading some series that I might not have otherwise. I enjoy their reviews and they keep me up to date on the happenings of the industry, which, as we've seen recently with Bandai and last year with Tokyopop, changes drastically from one moment to the next.
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